Category Archives: Interview

What I’m taking home from Cannes—takeaways from Editor-in-Chief Jeanine Poggi

Just a week or so ago the Cannes International Festival of Creativity was held in Cannes, France. Below is a write-up from AdAge’s Editor-in Chief on her impressions. Interesting reading!

Jeanine Poggi, editor-in-chief at Ad Age, speaks on stage with executives from Sephora US, Hinge and Heineken Mexico.
It’s me! (at right) Moderating a panel at this year’s Cannes Lions

ByJeanine Poggi, Ad Age editor-in-chief

June 27, 2026 07:00 AM EDT

On my way to Cannes, Delta offered a $7,000 voucher to switch to a later flight because my red-eye was overbooked. I almost abandoned the festival altogether. In truth, I was already exhausted by the idea of yet another conversation about AI anxiety and another debate about how the heart of the festival—the creative—has been replaced by data and technology. 

I begrudgingly got on the plane (at least I had the rosé to look forward to). 

And yes, there was plenty of hand-wringing over AI, plenty of debate about how exclusive and closed off the festival has become and, of course, plenty of complaints about the unbearable heat. 

This year, though, Ad Age took a bit of a different approach to the festival. Instead of filling the week with back-to-back panels, we convened chief marketing officers, creators, agency executives and marketing leaders for smaller roundtable discussions. We gave them the space to talk more freely, and they went deep on the challenges they are facing (it wasn’t just AI):

  • In our CMO roundtable, marketers spent a meaningful amount of time talking about convincing CFOs that creativity matters. 
  • During our creator-brand discussion, creators challenged brands to stop treating them like media buys and start treating them like strategic partners. 
  • At our Leading Women Network roundtable, a conversation about career visibility quickly became one about the invisible work required simply to be in the room.

Each of those conversations, without fail, ended with talking about trust, community and what it means to build genuine connection. It was these conversations that made dealing with what the French consider air conditioning worth the trip.

Here’s what else I’m taking home from the conversations at this year’s festival:

Marketing is becoming more human, not less.

One of my favorite moments from the week came during a CMO Spotlight panel I moderated at the Palais. I asked each of them the same question:

In one word, what’s the future of marketing?

Zena Srivatsa Arnold, CMO of Sephora, answered: community.

Tamika Young, CMO of Hinge, said: heart.

Marta Moreno Gómez, senior marketing manager, Heineken and international premium brands, Heineken Company, chose: human.

Three different answers, but the sentiment was the same: the future of marketing is built on stronger human connections.

Richard Edelman, CEO of Edelman, described a world that’s becoming more insular, where consumers increasingly rely on smaller networks and trusted voices. His advice to marketers: shift messaging from “we” to “me.” Build trust by making people feel seen, understood and represented.

That same thinking surfaced elsewhere throughout the week:

Pinterest’s “Less URL. More IRL.” activation reflected a desire for deeper, real-world connections. Netflix centered its Cannes presence around fandom. Even conversations about creators weren’t really about creators—they were about the communities they’ve built and the trust they’ve earned.

Again and again, technology was discussed as an enabler, not the strategy itself.

The creativity conversation has changed

For years, one of the recurring debates at Cannes has been whether creativity—the very thing the festival was built to celebrate—has taken a back seat to performance marketing.

That conversation is still happening.

But this year, it felt secondary to a different one: how marketers can convince the rest of the organization that creativity is a business driver, not just a marketing function.

It showed up in different ways throughout the week. The new Creative Brand Lionsrecognized companies that have built creativity into the way they operate, not just those that produced a standout campaign. Procter & Gamble’s Marc Pritchard spoke about using AI to accelerate creativity, not replace it. And across conversations with marketing leaders, the focus was less on choosing between brand and performance and more on building organizations where creativity can consistently drive business results.

The question is no longer whether creativity matters. It’s how organizations create the conditions for it to thrive and how marketing leaders make the case for it across the business. Creativity is increasingly being viewed not as a campaign outcome, but as an organizational capability.

Creator marketing has grown up

Five years ago, most creator conversations revolved around reach, engagement and follower counts. That isn’t what I heard this week. 

Brands talked about bringing creators into annual planning before a brief exists. Creators described themselves as consultants, product advisors and entrepreneurs. Compensation discussions extended beyond sponsorships to licensing, equity and long-term partnerships.

Edelman argued that brands should be investing less in celebrity and more in trusted creators with deep credibility inside smaller communities. The common thread was trust. 

AI is moving from novelty to infrastructure.

Last year, many of the conversations around AI centered on disruption.

This year, marketers were asking much more practical questions: How should teams be organized? What work belongs in-house? Which workflows should AI handle? Where does human judgment still matter most?

Pritchard described AI as a way to uncover insights faster and accelerate creative development, not replace it. One participant in our roundtable captured the sentiment in a single sentence: “You still need people with excellent taste.”

That may have been my favorite quote of the week because it recognizes what technology still can’t replace.

Leadership isn’t just built at work

But the conversation that personally had the biggest impact on me came during our Leading Women Network roundtable. 

We started by talking about networking, personal brands and career visibility. We ended up talking about everything it takes just to be in the room.

Women shared stories about partners rearranging schedules, grandparents flying in to help with childcare and the weeks of planning required simply to spend a few days in Cannes. One participant admitted she rarely talks publicly about those realities because she worries they’ll be interpreted as a lack of commitment. I suspect that’s true of many women leaders in this industry. 

We spend a lot of time talking about how people become leaders. We spend far less time talking about what it takes to make leadership possible in the first place.

That conversation was a reminder that visibility isn’t just about raising your hand or building your network. For many leaders, it’s supported by an invisible layer of planning, tradeoffs and care work that rarely gets acknowledged but makes showing up possible.

The conversation that matters: Trust

If there was one thread running through nearly every conversation I heard, it was trust.

Edelman talked about consumers relying on smaller circles and trusted voices. CMOs talked about community, heart and being more human. Brand leaders talked aboutgiving creators more ownership. Marketers also talked about earning buy-in from their own organizations.

As the industry becomes more complex, technology alone isn’t going to solve the hardest problems. Those solutions come from people sharing ideas, challenging one another and learning together.

That’s why Ad Age keeps bringing this community together—not just to report on what’s changing, but to create space for people in the industry to make sense of it with one another. 

I’m glad I didn’t take that $7,000 voucher. 

Hopefully making a ruckus, one blog post at a time!

Be sure to check out my other blog,Joe’s Journey, for selected short stories and personal insights on life and its detours.

10 QUESTIONS

Wieden+Kennedy’s Jessica Apellaniz on Mexico finding its creative voice

This is a recent interview I found enlightening and interesting. I trust you will, too.

The chief creative officer of W+K Mexico also discusses crafting one’s creative process and the real magic of creativity. (W+K)

Jessica Apellaniz became Wieden+Kennedy Mexico’s first chief creative officer when the agency opened its Mexico City office in 2023. Since then, she has shaped the office’s creative vision and work for clients including Nike, Ford, Uber and Anheuser-Busch InBev.

Previously, she served as Ogilvy’s CCO for Latin America, leading award-winning campaigns for brands such as Coca-Cola, KFC, Mondelēz and American Express.

Apellaniz began her career in production, including a stint at MTV Latin America, before moving into copywriting and creative leadership. One of the few women to hold a regional creative leadership role in Latin America, she has also been an advocate for building more representative and inclusive teams across the industry.

We spoke with her about deadlines, crafting one’s creative process, Mexico’s creative voice in the region and the real magic of creativity.

Jessica, tell us … your first job in advertising, and your current job.

My first job was actually at Blockbuster, which tells you how long I’ve been around. My first copywriting job was at Terán\TBWA, working on Palacio de Hierro, basically a headline paradise. More than 20 years later, I helped found W+K Mexico.

An ad or campaign that inspired you coming up in the business.

Telecom’s “La Llama Que Llama.” I loved the absurdity of it. Funnily enough, they just brought it back, which makes me feel inspired and old at the same time.

The last ad that made you jealous.

“Viva La Vulva” and “Never Just a Period.” I used to hate getting the “girly brief” just because I was the girl in the room. After Libresse, all I wanted was a tampon brief.

A recent project you’re proud of.

“Who’s Waiting for You?” for Victoria Beer is a film that reminds us someone is waiting on the other side. It made me think of death not as an ending, but as the day I get to hug my dad again.

Something exciting that’s happening in the Mexico creative scene.

I think Mexico is finally finding its own voice. Argentina became known for brilliant scripts, Brazil for extraordinary craft. We’re embracing our own maximalism—proudly rooted, beautifully messy and deeply human.

One thing that can make anyone a better creative.

Craft your creative process. Figure out how to get yourself into that state where ideas can roam freely. The process is different for everyone.

How you personally get inspired. 

I walk with headphones on. I read books that somehow connect to whatever I’m working on—and, of course, deadlines—they’re underrated creative directors.

What most brands still don’t understand about creativity.

The biggest misunderstanding is that creativity is the output. The real magic is in the way it helps you see the problem differently.

Something people might not know about you.

I’m an introvert, an overthinker and dyslexic. Which means every idea gets tested a thousand times before it leaves my head.

Where advertising is headed next.

We might finally see Dan Wieden and Phil Knight’s dream come true: advertising that doesn’t feel like advertising at all.

Hopefully making a ruckus, one blog post at a time!

Be sure to check out my other blog,Joe’s Journey, for selected short stories and personal insights on life and its detours.

Focus on Partnerships, Not Paychecks: Why Agencies Must Reinvent Themselves 

adspeak logo card
ADWEEK’s podcast episode.

In a recent episode of Adspeak by ADWEEK, executive editor Alison Weissbrot leads a Brandweek panel featuring Nadja Bellan-White, group CEO at M&C Saatchi; Coltrane Curtis, founder and managing partner at Team Epiphany; and Kern Schireson, chairman and CEO at Known. 

Together, they discuss the need to redefine agency-client partnerships. As budgets tighten and AI reshapes workflows, they explain why legacy and fee-based models are no longer viable. 

Instead, success hinges on empathy, trust, and aligned incentives tied to outcomes. The panel shares practical strategies, from embedding test-and-learn budgets to understanding board-level pressures and deploying agile “tiger teams.” 

What you’ll learn:

They emphasize deeper specialization, real human connection, and shared accountability as the foundation for resilient, high-performing partnerships in a rapidly evolving marketing landscape.

  • How to shift from legacy fee-based models to incentive-aligned partnerships 
  • Why understanding your client’s board-level KPIs is non-negotiable 
  • The “Three Ideas Framework” for managing risk and building trust 
  • How to build genuine relationships through human connection and empathy 
  • Why agency expertise depth matters more than breadth 
  • How to balance internal restructuring and team protection with client excellence

Three agency leaders on why legacy and fee-based are no longer viable.

Nadja Bellan-White is the Group CEO at M&C Saatchi, and a “human-first” marketing leader known as a go-to fixer for complex brand transformations. With 25+ years in integrated marketing, she blends data, creativity, technology, and media to drive meaningful customer connections. She has led transformations for global brands including American Express, IKEA, and Coca-Cola, and partnered with African governments to spur growth. An AdColor Legend Award recipient, she brings a sharp focus on context, culture, and creativity to every engagement.

Coltrane Curtis is the Founder and Managing Partner of Team Epiphany, a New York-based influencer marketing and PR agency he launched in 2004. What began as a one-man shop has grown into a 70+ person, multidisciplinary agency with offices in New York and Portland. With roots at MTV and deep experience across brands like Nike, HBO, and Coca-Cola, Curtis blends cultural fluency with sharp strategic execution. Known for building powerful brand and celebrity partnerships, he has been recognized by Inc., Forbes, Adweek, and AdColor, and serves on the American Black Film Festival board.

Kern Schireson is the CEO of Known, a next-generation agency built on data-driven strategy and systemic innovation. With deep expertise in incentive alignment and AI-powered optimization, he is helping redefine the modern agency model. Kern champions using technology as a force multiplier for enhancing, not replacing, human creativity, while embedding rigorous test-and-learn frameworks into client partnerships. His approach focuses on aligning incentives and enabling continuous iteration, driving measurable, breakthrough results for brands navigating an increasingly complex marketing landscape.

Hopefully making a ruckus, one blog post at a time!

Be sure to check out my other blog,Joe’s Journey, for selected short stories and personal insights on life and its detours.

The end of mid-size agencies? Inside the shifts that will reshape the ad business

This story is part of Ad Age’s Future of Advertising 2030 series exploring how marketing, media and creativity will evolve over the next five years.

Advertising agencies are in the process of setting strategies for the next five years despite numerous unknowns—the impact of AI, speed of consolidation and increasing ease of in-housing among them. These variables may have wide-reaching impact, including the potential demise of mid-size agencies, that marketers should be preparing for now.

On Ad Age Insider, Ad Age reporters look at the future of ad agencies and strategies that industry leaders are putting into place now to prepare.

“A lot of [agencies’] executional work becomes commoditized by AI, and a lot of marketers will have pretty robust in-house systems. So the real value and agency lie in their strategic thinking and being able to bring an outsider perspective to the equation.” –Ewan Larkin, agency reporter, Ad Age

Ad Age Insider podcast transcript

Parker Herren, host: How will the agency landscape transform by 2030? What has surprised you guys the most in your reporting on the future of agencies?

The demise of mid-size agencies

Brian Bonilla, senior agency reporter: It’s hard to be surprised, but I would say something that might surprise people in general—the role of the mid-size agency might go away by 2030, meaning we’re already seeing a lot of small, independent agencies get a lot of business, but we’re now starting to see those same agencies competing with each other and competing with large agencies and seeing a leveling of new business opportunities. And at the same time, mid-size agencies, which typically range from like 100 to maybe 250 employees, are competing with large holdco networks of like 5,000 employees for the same business. 

So by 2030, you’re going to see those mid-sized agencies either merge with other entities or sell to private equity firms or things like that. That’s going to be something that might be surprising for a lot of people, and I think will happen quicker than people realize.

How agency structures will shift

Ewan Larkin, agency reporter: This is interesting. For a couple of years, agencies have been trying to market themselves as consultants, and it hasn’t really stuck. To some degree, it has, but I think it’s obvious they are still service providers fundamentally. But I actually do think now we might see that shift start to stick a little bit. A lot of the executional work becomes commoditized by AI, and a lot of marketers will have pretty robust in-house systems. So the real value at agencies lies in their strategic thinking and being able to bring an outsider perspective to the equation. 

I think that puts them in direct contact … with the likes of Deloitte Digital and Accenture Song. So the focus for agencies really should be building up some of those consulting capabilities and commerce consulting capabilities. Agencies like VML are already starting to do this. They rolled out a unit earlier that encompasses consulting, CX and other things, and that already accounts for about 40% of their overall global revenue. So, I expect more people to make moves like this. This is one of the early stages of holding companies really being able to package up one of those offerings.

Parker: For Ad Age’s Future of Advertising package, media reporter Brandon Doerrer wrote about 2030 readiness. And chief technology reporter Garett Sloane dug into the 2030 tech stack. That sounds pretty thrilling. What did you guys find in your reporting?

Brandon: People tend to think that there are just going to be more and more integrated accounts, especially between creative and media. The walls are really coming down between those two functions. We are seeing brands increasingly hire the same agency to handle both of those functions. So, agencies are going to need to get used to those two functions not being in silos anymore, not having walls exist between those two teams.

Garett: We’re already starting to see these roles change. We’re seeing shifting ways of billing clients, different business models, different services agencies have to cater to. So, it’s already happening. It’s going to happen more and more where agencies are going to have to operate as platforms and services that can interact with brands and help brands build their ad tech stacks, acting as consultants, acting as facilitators into this futuristic landscape.

That’s where agencies need to go, and they’re starting already by developing new products and services. Whether that will work is still an open question, and if they can adjust and change—some will, some won’t.

The social AOR resurgence

Parker: Let’s talk influencers. Gillian Follett covered the future of the social and influencer space. Is there any way the future of influencers will impact agencies in 2030?

Gillian: Experts that I talked to for the story said that they predict the spectrum of influencer agencies will stretch to the extremes. So, we’ll see more brands working with influencer functions within larger holding companies, or we’ll see brands looking to very specialized boutique agencies who specialize in specific platforms or types of creators, like gaming creators, for example.

We’re also going to continue to see influencer budgets increase, not at the same meteoric rate that we’ve seen over the past couple of years, but based on forecasts from intelligence companies like eMarketer, it’s definitely on an upward trajectory. 

We’re also seeing a resurgence of social agency of record assignments from brands across different categories. Something that I spoke to one marketer about was this idea that it’s not just the brands that are trying to target Gen Z or want to be social-first anymore that are looking for social AORs. It’s brands that they wouldn’t expect, like more established legacy brands are looking for social AORs. And a lot of these brands are seeking the insights that social media can provide in terms of what consumers are looking for, the types of products that they’re craving and using social as the foundation for their marketing campaigns rather than having social be a tacked-on piece at the end.

Parker: Okay, Lindsay, I’m going to let you round out this group with some intel from your reporting on the RFP process in 2030.

Lindsay Rittenhouse, senior agency reporter: Within the RFP process, agencies are going to have to stop the theater—the glossy presentations, the pitch decks, and really showcase how you’re working as a team. Get ready to be in more chemistry meetings—enough with the showboating and the theater in the pitch.

Parker: Tell us how marketers should begin preparing for that now.

Lindsay: Well, they have to set up the process so that there are more chemistry meetings and more time for the meatier stuff, the interviewing, the briefings, the working together, and just get rid of some of the processes. You don’t have to do these massive pitch presentations. [Marketers] are the ones who set the process for the RFP, so don’t allow the theatrics.

Agencies in 2030—how to plan ahead

Parker: I want to hear everyone’s advice for how marketers or agency leaders can begin prepping for their 2030 strategy. Why don’t we just go round robin, starting with you, Brian.

Brian: Start thinking about what type of agency model do you want as a marketer. We’re seeing roster agency models become way more popular, meaning instead of having just one AOR handle everything, I’ll have a social agency here, I’ll have a creative agency here or I’ll have a roster of five creative agencies. 

If you’re an agency, start thinking about what model makes the most sense for you to be in—should I be more niche or should I broaden my capabilities? And as a marketer—same question but on the flip side. If I’m going to be spending less on marketing, but I’m expecting to have more outcomes, what is the best model that makes sense for my external partnerships? Because I do think agencies will still be necessary as much as we’re talking about in-housing and things like that.

Ewan: They need to clarify which functions they want done in-house, which ones they need outsourced, very clearly defining what they can do themselves versus what is essential that they get from an external partner. There is a push for efficiency, and, obviously, everybody wants to save costs, so they want to bring it in-house, but you are going to need an external partner. You always do need that outside perspective. So, very clearly define what needs to be done yourselves and what you need an agency for. 

But rethinking agency relationships in general—they’ve always been seen as providers, that’s what they are, but now a lot of them are going to be actually helping build those internal capabilities. So identify which agencies are high-level strategic thinkers, which ones really understand your brand and your challenges, which ones can help me build my internal chops. Those are the ones that I think are likely to have long-term value.

Brandon: On the agency side of things, if you’re a creative agency and you don’t already have media capabilities, really digging in and evaluating if it would be worth building that out. If you have a unique angle, something to offer brands to make yourself stand out from the plethora of media agencies that can do the same thing. Media is probably in a similar boat. At least having an understanding of various creative processes is going to be helpful.

On the marketer side of things, brands can just not be afraid to ask. I did a story not too long ago about how indie creative agencies can respond to requests for media services. And the reason why agencies are starting to think about either building these capabilities internally or which media agencies they can partner with is because they’re getting these requests. Marketers—don’t be afraid to ask if you have an indie creative shop that you’re working with that doesn’t do media. They’re getting used to getting that question already, and they are starting to think about how to best answer that question. So, no dumb questions is the advice.

Garett: They could start developing the services and tools, and some are. We’ve seen agencies launch AI agents—the trading bots that they can all of a sudden potentially give out to brands to start to use. A lot of these tools that agencies are building are internal, but eventually, they’re going to make them external and start shipping them to brands to use as part of their suite of services. So, agencies start building internally and then will start giving it out to the masses.

Gillian: Brands should start considering whether they want to look to agencies to help them with sharpening their social strategies to adapt to this new way of seeking consumer insights from social and using social as a starting point for marketing. For some brands, it might make more sense to develop a social media team in-house to lead these efforts for the brand. Some brands have sought social media agencies of record because of the wide range of functions that are involved in social media marketing today, like paid social, creator marketing, social media intelligence gathering. There’s just a lot that goes into it these days.

Brands should start considering whether that’s something they can do in-house, or if they need to find partners to help them develop those strategies as social becomes more and more important.

Key Takeaways

  • Mid-size agencies will likely disappear by 2030, either merging or selling to private equity firms
  • Agencies are shifting from ad makers to consultants and platform builders
  • Creative and media functions will merge as brands increasingly hire one agency for both services

Hopefully making a ruckus, one blog post at a time!

Be sure to check out my other blog, Joe’s Journey, for selected short stories and personal insights on life and its detours.

8 agency leaders divulge the most pressing issues facing their business—and how they’re navigating them

The 4As hosted a roundtable with Ad Age and seven industry leaders from holding companies and independent agencies at Advertising Week New York to discuss some of the most pressing issues facing executives today.

Lindsay Rittenhouse reported that the roundtable included a lineup of executives spanning a wide range of roles and companies: 4As CEO Justin Thomas-Copeland; Stacey Hightower, CEO of Omnicom Specialty Marketing Group; Frances Webster, CEO of independent agency Walrus; Tracey Faux-Pattani, CEO of independent shop Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners; Chris Foster, CEO of Omnicom Public Relations Group; Ian Grody, chief creative officer of independent shop Giant Spoon; Joe Baratelli, executive VP and chief creative officer of independent agency RPA; and Nada Bradbury, CEO of Ad-ID, which sets a standard for the industry to identify advertising assets across all media.

These leaders discussed a wide range of topics, including how they are using AI in their day-to-day; how they are driving value in their agencies; the means to stand out in an increasingly crowded market; and what talent they are hiring.

Some takeaways from the conversation:

How agency leaders are using AI

Webster said Walrus is using AI to respond to an “RFI right now … it’s helping us with upfront strategy and segmentation.”

“It’s like the internet from the ‘90s, you’ve got to surf the wave and you can’t have a two-year plan,” she said. “It’s a three-month plan or a six-month plan. But if you’re not engaging with it, you’re out.”

Hightower said Omnicom Specialty Marketing Group has been using AI in Europe “for quite some time.” He said the agency created a call center that has been using AI to speak with customers who dial in on branded hotlines. It’s also now bringing internal efficiencies. For example, Omnicom Specialty Marketing Group uses AI to sift through resumes.

“We do probably 5,000, on average, hires a year in Europe … We can’t get to every resume that comes into our inbox,” Hightower said.

“We’re an indie shop, so we’re bootstrapping everything,” Baratelli said. “We’re using it around the stuff no one wants to do, reporting, scoping.”

The conversation came on the heels of Madison Logic releasing new research from a Harris Interactive survey of more than 300 business-to-business marketing leaders. It found that three in four of those surveyed believe the future of advertising will be defined by AI-driven creative processes (73%) in the next five years. Two in three of those surveyed predicted personalization at scale and immersive advertising (66% each) will become more prevalent, and 84% believe traditional advertising will be dead by 2030.

Still, all of the executives agreed that advertising is a relationship business and nothing will change that.

“It’s important to point out that these are all really responsible uses of AI,” Ad-ID’s Bradbury said. “What we are seeing on our side is folks trying to understand the various uses of AI. So everybody does all this great work [and] we’re getting calls saying, ‘Can you help verify this for me? Is this a product that came out of an agency? There’s this other layer that you just can’t control [AI] that we need to start to wrap our arms around it.”

Strategists are in demand

AdAge asked what jobs are most in demand right now and strategy was the one definitive.

Faux-Pattani said BSSP is always on the hunt for great strategists, but noted that the shop sometimes struggles to find truly top candidates in that space. She said curiosity is always needed in that role, but the agency has had a hard time finding candidates who have curiosity that is “intuitive” versus “data curiosity.”

The strategy role is also shifting and putting more pressure on professionals in those roles.

Since clients are buying more “connected solutions,” agencies need strategies to be adept in everything from “commerce to brand, to media, to analytics, to creative understanding,” Thomas-Copeland said. “I don’t know any strategies that can do all of those things really well. And then at the same time in the room there was a call for strategy as a function to be front-of-house with clients. So suddenly they’re in a new environment.”

Webster argued that strategists and account people now have to “battle together … as an account strategist, you really need to understand your client’s business much better than they do.”

Hunting for new business opportunities

Most of the executives said there is a lot of opportunity to win new pieces of business, but they are far-ranging in size. Industry and agency leaders also have to be strategic in deciding what accounts to go after. 

Health care agency reviews are on the rise, for example, and Faux-Pattani said she sees a lot more “emerging brands” looking to hire shops right now.

In terms of the boon in health care agency reviews, Thomas-Copeland said that category has always been more “resilient” to macroeconomic factors. Still, 4As agency members have told the organization that even within health care marketing, “projects are not being solidified … in terms of planning and commitments, there’s a bit less of that,” he said.

Thomas-Copeland said agencies are having to place “their bets on where they’re going to look for opportunity, and trying to get really good at judging what is an opportunity that looks like it has some longevity, versus the one-and-done.”

“We’ve been very selective over the past 18 months or so in terms of the clients that we pursue from a business perspective and it’s worked,” Giant Spoon’s Grody said. “Over the last six months, we’ve won 67% of our pitches. The reason is we go after fewer, bigger, better and then we find smaller clients where we see that profound growth potential.”

Webster said Walrus has had success going after emerging brands that have reached $200 million to $400 million in revenue and are “ready to spend. They’re either getting ready for an IPO or sale, or they’ve just sold and need to show return on that investment,” she said.

For Omnicom Public Relations Group, Foster said it’s a much different situation.

“We will probably chase 2,500 RFPs in the course of a year,” he said. “We’re doing 100 or so a week as a network, if not more. The deal flow is very different in PR than advertising and media … in Europe, I’m seeing competitive consolidation in the marketplace, and so the deal sizes are small because there’s just a lot more competition.”

How to stand out in a crowded market

Faux-Pattani said she’s starting to see more intimate pitches with two or three competing shops, versus somewhere between four and six, which she welcomes. She said she sometimes will turn down a pitch if there are too many shops vying for the account.

That might be good for the agencies invited to pitch, but that means there are even fewer opportunities to get a foot in the door. The executives discussed how they are standing out in an increasingly overcrowded market that sees new agencies popping up seemingly every day to compete with holding company shops and independents alike.

“There are 14,000 agencies out there,” Webster said, making it more pertinent to understand your niche and where it makes sense for you to show up as an agency. Walrus, she said, goes after the opportunities it wants, rather than waiting for them.

“We have a robust sales department, PR program and outreach program,” she said. “For these smaller pieces of business, too, it’s much easier to hunt—to prospect, build, identify opportunities and make relationships, so we’re not actually having to go into a pitch. We close a lot of business that way.”

Hightower said Omnicom Specialty Marketing Group promotes itself through “product innovation and storytelling.”

“In Europe, we will pitch a suite of modalities, so we’ll say, ‘Give us your budget and we’ll figure out the best way to implement your spend across a number of modalities,” he said. “That has resonated well in that marketplace. In the U.S., it’s been through technology, building platforms where we are able to acquire data about the client, about their value chain, and then providing them feedback that can help them reduce costs and get more bang for their buck.”

Despite the conservative backlash to diversity initiatives, the executives said they remain committed.

The state of DEI

“From a 4As standpoint, the focus will continue to be on inclusive teams, and inclusive teams are great for business, they’re great for being an economic multiplier, they’re great for brands being much more in tune with the market,” Thomas-Copeland said.

Webster reiterated that point, saying companies with diverse boards and teams outperform those that are not.

“We’ve always been committed to inclusivity,” Grody said. “We remain committed to inclusivity. Nothing has changed.”

Hopefully making a ruckus, one blog post at a time!

Be sure to check out my other blog, Joe’s Journey, for selected short stories and personal insights on life and its detours.

The future of ad jobs—what changes to expect by 2030 and why it matters

In my recent past I ran across this story about future advertising jobs and thought it interesting in light of the increasing presence of AI. The story is part of Ad Age’s Future of Advertising 2030 series exploring how marketing, media and creativity will evolve over the next five years. I thought it worth sharing. Credit Lindsay Rittenhouse, senior reporter, Ad Age.

As the advertising industry transforms, the skills needed to climb the ladder are as well. At the top, chief marketing officers may take on new duties as others in the C-suite are replaced by AI; at the entry level, young marketers need to develop targeted and differentiated skills to stand out against work that could be automated.

And the relationship between the highest and lowest workers may change as the need for apprentice-like models emerges to maintain the talent pipeline.

“Some agencies are now rethinking how junior roles are comprised…By 2030, they’re going to be looking for generalists, more client-facing junior employees, more strategists versus the intern-type tasks, the reporting and those technical kinds of jobs.”

Ad Age Insider podcast transcript

Parker Herren, host: Let’s dig in to today’s topic: inside the rapidly changing job market and how talent can plan ahead for their career paths. Jack, how will the CMO job look different in 2030?

The CMO of 2030

Jack Neff, editor-at-large: For CMOs, AI may actually help them to some extent in that AI is good at what a lot of CMOs aren’t good at: data, analytics, legal logistics, product science, things of that nature. And some folks believe that AI will lessen the role of other participants in the C-suite and increase the role of marketers.

The new entry level

Parker: Lindsay, I know you had perspective on the opposite end of the industry. How will entry-level jobs change by 2030?

Lindsay Rittenhouse, senior reporter:From my reporting, AI is going to drastically change the role of junior employees. So a lot of the tasks that they’re doing right now in media, there’s reporting and certain technical tasks—AI can take over, which threatens their jobs. But some agencies are now rethinking how junior roles are comprised.

They’re building junior roles. By 2030, they’re going to be looking for generalists, more client-facing junior employees, more strategists versus them doing the intern-type tasks, the reporting and those technical kinds of jobs.

The new AI workflow

Parker: AI seems to be a recurring theme. So let’s popcorn over to Garett Sloane, Ad Age’s chief technology reporter. Then we’ll go to senior agency reporter Brian Bonilla and media reporter Brandon Doerrer.

Garett Sloane, chief technology reporter:I’m sure we’re going to hear a lot of this throughout the package, this sort of angst about whether AI will be taking jobs, how much it will replace. And when you talk to the experts, it’s always, “AI will supplement your job,” and, “it’s going to just be an assistant,” and, “it’s going to make you do more work, not less; we’re going to need more workers, not fewer.” 

I think that may be a little optimistic. I think some of these AI agents being developed and other tools built on AI—these are going to replace a lot of work that is currently being done. You’re going to have to be working with AI and someone who’s knowledgeable about it to manage a lot more and do a lot more with less. So I think we have to be ready for that.

Brian: There’s a few different things here. Again, with AI, we’re seeing resumes being catered to AI-specific roles. And a lot of times, people are looking for people who understand how to prompt-engineer specific tasks. And we’re seeing [applications] that have specific tests for different AI functions. Talent needs to be thinking about getting prepared for that, just like how when I was growing up, I was prepared for certain questions. I think these are going to be very common. 

Beyond AI, we’re seeing a few different rises. Social media accounts, in general, are growing within agencies. I’m expecting a rise in social media expertise, same as strategists and consulting-type roles, especially as agencies like VaynerMedia, for example, they’re investing in this new product called Co-Lab, where the whole premise is basically having agency teams built within in-house teams at brands. And they believe that by 2030, this can make up 50% of their revenue. That is not a traditional advertising agency role. 

So how do you prepare for that? You need to start thinking more strategically. How are you building your consulting expertise just as much as your creative thinking expertise?

Brandon: I spoke with Matt Moorut, who is an analyst at Gartner, for my 2030 checklist story, and we talked a lot about how the unpredictability of the next five years makes it a lot harder to justify hiring specialists anymore, particularly in media. It just doesn’t make a lot of sense to hire people who have a lot of hyper-expertise on one platform or a small handful of platforms. It seems like marketers are going to benefit from having a broad skill set and being generalists.

Parker: How can talent start preparing right now for that unpredictability?

Brandon: Something that Matt and I talked about is that it makes more sense to train the employees you have right now to be more generalists, give them a broader set of tools, especially in the media landscape. Get them familiar with all the different places that they can help a brand show up. These people already know the needs of a brand, of a company, and it’s going to be easier to train the people you already have than to hire new generalists and get them familiar with everything that a brand needs.

Parker: Who else has a tip for marketers? Jack?

Jack: [Marketers] should probably work on becoming adept at managing AI as part of their workforce essentially, and becoming conceivably the force within the C-suite that is better at working with AI than anybody else.

The emerging apprenticeship model

Parker: Okay, I’m seeing a hand. This is Creativity Editor Tim Nudd with a little nuance on this AI conversation.

Tim Nudd, creativity editor: One thing I think is interesting and important as agencies and brands get ready for this new structure is finding ways to maintain the excitement in the creative department. One interesting thing is that people worry about what’s called “cognitive atrophy” when it comes to AI, which is where if AI does a lot for you, then you start to think less yourself and maybe you lose skills. And I think that can be true in creativity as well, where if AI is coming up with most of your ideas and you’re just curating them, that could have a negative impact on people’s creativity. 

One thing that agencies can do to prepare is to think about how to guard against that. If you think back to the Renaissance, there was this apprentice model where the young folks learning a craft would have direct access to the master. Creative departments could end up being structured that way too, where juniors work more directly with senior creatives much earlier in their careers. That doesn’t happen a lot now. 

So, to guard against AI doing all the work and people not actually learning any skills, marketers and agencies would do well to really focus on human mentorship and really getting people to learn those skills, the fundamentals of creativity, fundamentals of advertising earlier in their careers, or really [give] access to the top folks.

What this may end up doing is hollowing out the middle management within creative agencies, where you really have the seniors who can work directly with the brands, and then you’ve got more juniors who are learning the trade directly from them. In some ways, it could end up being a throwback to the centuries-old model of learning from the master within advertising too.

Parker: Garrett, take us home with a last thought on how talent can prepare for the industry’s future job market.

Garett: They should be incorporating AI into their general daily work. You’re using ChatGPT every day—I’m sure people are already doing that. It’s already become part of the basic computing tools we’re using. 

A fun term to come out of my future of ad tech story is a topic known as “vibe targeting.” Vibe targeting is using AI in sort of a jazzy, freestyle way where you’re prompting it to come up with new ideas and for targeting in programmatic advertising. It’s about finding new audiences, just going with the flow to figure out the best way to come up with a target audience, feeding AI different pieces of data so you can uncover new trends maybe from social media or from something about your brand. And then having AI assist you with just good vibes.

Hopefully making a ruckus, one blog post at a time!

Be sure to check out my other blog, Joe’s Journey, for selected short stories and personal insights on life and its detours.

Creativity: Key Driver to Profitability in B2B Advertising

In my continuing effort to share pertinent information regarding the value that creativity plays in today’s marketplace, I share the following interview from LinkedIn as it relates to business-to-business advertising.

As part of a multi-year partnership between LinkedIn and Cannes Lions, LinkedIn along with its think tank, the B2B Institute, worked with the Cannes Lions as a strategic thought partner to develop the Creative B2B Lions Awards. Below are excerpts from a LinkedIn interview with Tyrona Heath, Director of Marketing Engagement at LinkedIn’s B2B Institute. It is aimed at celebrating and championing B2B excellence to drive creativity and excitement amongst B2B brands, marketers, and advertisers.

Summary:

  • Creativity is a key driver of profitability in B2B marketing and plays a crucial role in building brand recognition, differentiation, and market share
  • B2B advertising is facing a crisis of creativity, with research showing that 75% of B2B ads receive a low effectiveness rating
  • B2B brand building has a massive untapped opportunity, with significant growth potential in the marketing services industry

When you talk about creativity in B2B, it can feel abstract. Can you explain it in a tangible and relatable way?

For a long time, people have associated B2B with purely business-related content, detached from the principles that influence decision-making. However, B2B content is consumed by human decision-makers who are influenced by the same factors as any other audience. Emotion, storytelling, music, characters, and persuasive techniques are all necessary in B2B to inspire decision-making. Ultimately, it’s about creating a memorable brand that stands out and drives effective outcomes, with creativity at the center.

Is B2B advertising facing a crisis of creativity? And if so, how did we get here?

In the case of B2B advertising, there is a significant opportunity for improvement. Research indicates that the majority of B2B ads lack memorability and effectiveness. According to an analysis with our creative effectiveness partner, System1, a staggering 75% of B2B ads received a low effectiveness rating of one star out of five. These ads failed to leave a lasting impression, effectively communicate the message, or evoke an emotional response. This means they were not effective in building brand awareness or generating a return on investment.

How do you sell the need for brand building and creativity to senior marketers or budget holders?

That’s a great question, and it relates to our previous discussion about marketing to the CFO. Ogilvy Rory Sutherland once compared discussing brand with a finance director to talking about the healing power of crystals to a head surgeon. To finance-focused individuals, brand discussions may come across as fluffy and irrelevant. The best ads are effective because they better encode an association in a buyer’s memory, and brand building is one of the most powerful levers for driving business growth by building memories. We need to shift our mindset to effectively communicate the connection and value of brand building and creativity.

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AI’s Impact on Creativity in Ad industry: A Panel Review

How do you think AI will impact creativity in the ad industry – positively and negatively – in the near future? This is the question put forth to a panel of nine industry gurus, moderated by one Carol Cooper of Shots, in a recent article. There’s been so much written already about AI that I felt it appropriate and timely to share this panel discussion since it relates to creativity and advertising.

 

Johnny Vulkan, Founding Partner, Anomaly

The first photograph was allegedly taken in 1826 but it wasn’t until just shy of 100 years later that an American gallery deemed photography worthy of inclusion in their collection. After all, what artistic skill does it require to create a mechanical and chemical replication of reality?

We’re now, hopefully, more enlightened about photography and the still; moving and digitally manipulated form has become a central part of our industry. And now we have a new tool, AI.

Whilst it can be crude, nascent, often clumsily disappointing and inaccurate, we’re already seeing exquisitely crafted images and concepts brought to life. Some of these outputs would’ve taken weeks to achieve using more conventional methods, and maybe only the finest of today’s craftspeople would be able to even come close. Now, like so much software before it, seemingly impossible ideas can take seconds to render, and that democratizing of creation is exciting and terrifying in equal measure.

Jobs will be lost. New jobs will be created, but it’s clear that the best insurance anyone can have would be to experiment, learn and play. 

AI is not without problems and it’s natural for us all to experience some discomfort as ‘bad actors’ have the same access to tools as people with less malicious intent, but this genie will not be going back in the bottle. We can probably predict a few years of highly litigious legal jeopardy as all industries struggle to define new rules and concepts in intellectual property and rights but this will only slow rather than reverse the direction of travel.

It won’t take 100 years for AI creativity to appear in gallery collections, in fact it’s already controversially helping to win awards and competitions. But it’s still ultimately a tool. One that any one of us can wield and learn to master. What a great chance for us all to learn.

Above: Anomaly founder Johnny Vulkan, made by AI with Lensa.

 

Johnny Budden, Executive Creative Director at AKQA

As with any new technology, you could choose to limit human advancement or take people to the moon. When cars were invented we didn’t change our previous methods of transportation – we still walked, cycled and moved around as before. We simply had access to technology that improved our method of getting around.

There are countless possibilities of using AI to add creativity to our work – not replace it. And we are now harnessing those possibilities to advance civilization. For example, HeyPi.com is a compassionate AI that cares about your needs. GoFundMe used AI animation to bring donation stories to life.

The power of machine learning created a match between Serena Williams and her past self, from her first Grand Slam at the 1999 US Open versus her most recent at the 2017 Australian Open. We are going to the moon, everyday.

The advantages of AI means that our boutique team is expanded now into a team of a million. We are still driven by the same imagination and passion as before, only now with access to an infinite resource of information to help us achieve the future faster.

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Can AI and Creativity Coexist? An AI Followup

Recently we have been hearing a great deal about Artificial Intelligence (AI) and its impact on society. Last week this blog posted some of that information and this week shares with you a followup of sorts. Below is part of an interview with two professors from UCLA, Jacob Foster and Danny Snelson, and their take on AI’s influence on us. Thanks to Jonathan Riggs for spearheading the effort.

 

One of the Writers Guild of America’s demands in its current strike is for studios to regulate the use of artificial intelligence for creating, writing and rewriting TV and movie scripts and other material.

That might have sounded like a far-fetched concern just a few years ago. But with increasingly sophisticated, easily accessed AI tools already making inroads in other creative fields — literary magazines and fine arts competitions have lately had to contend with a glut of AI-generated submissions — there is a very real concern that expensive, time-intensive human creative labor could soon be outsourced to machines.

Higher education has reached an inflection point, too, now that AI tools can pass graduate-level exams and write serviceable essays at the touch of a button. Already, UCLA has posted a faculty guide and held a virtual town hall on the subject.

“We in the humanities have long thought about these kinds of questions, especially at the experimental limits of what constitutes creativity,” said Danny Snelson, a UCLA assistant professor of English and a writer, editor and archivist. “Lately I’ve been thinking about this artwork by Robert Rauschenberg from 1961 in which he sent a one-line telegram: ‘This Is a Portrait of Iris Clert if I Say So.’ It’s a perfect rejoinder to where some of the debates about creativity and AI are right now.”

Jacob Foster is a UCLA associate professor of sociology, computational social scientist and co-director of the Diverse Intelligences Summer Institute, which unites scholars to explore cognition in all forms. He also has pondered the revolution that appears to be unfolding.

“Something terrible and amazing is about to happen, but no one has a full idea what these systems are capable of — or an entirely clear picture of how they do the things that they do,” he said.

In a joint interview, Foster and Snelson spoke about how chatbots could be used in teaching, offered historic analogs for the current AI explosion and opined about whether technology is actually capable of creativity. Answers have been edited slightly for length and clarity.

 

Are you excited or concerned about where AI is headed — or both?

Jacob Foster: I’m excited, given my broad interest in how complex wholes become smarter than their parts. I agree with the school of thought that says AI creates opportunities to get at a more fundamental understanding of — and clarity about — things like intelligence and creativity.

Danny Snelson                                                        David Esquivel/UCLA

Danny Snelson: I’m tremendously excited watching these developments unfold, but in a physiological sense — an excited state of fight or flight. Things are moving faster than we can understand them. These developments change things in ways that matter. The effects of algorithmic bias are real and the harms of technological development are never equally distributed.

Foster: To that point, I recently asked ChatGPT to write short plays about the nature of creativity. Until I explicitly told it that the expert on creativity had to be a woman, it always came up with a story about a singular male genius interacting with a female muse or with a female petitioner seeking his advice.

When you read the technical report for GPT, they have worked very hard to tamp down on problematic responses — for example, using reinforcement learning with human feedback — but even this neutral prompt resulted in a gender-biased response. AI is a mirror of the things we’ve written and the stories we’ve told, and that becomes a much bigger deal when it’s potentially determining who gets jobs or certain insurance rates.

I’m helping to organize a program at our Institute for Pure and Applied Mathematics on the mathematics of intelligences, and trying to develop the theoretical foundations of AI is obviously a big motivation. I don’t think we have the resources within social theory to think about the possible rearrangements of society that such technologies could enable. We don’t know how to deal with social change that’s happening so quickly and pervasively.

 

Is AI capable of creativity?

Foster: We often reserve the notion of creativity for the capacity to generate interesting, novel things. But the contrarian part of me wants to argue when people say, “Large language models aren’t creative; they’re just putting things together.” Humans do that, too — look at many of the papers produced by students or academics!

Snelson: These systems reveal just how formally consistent most writing is. The more generic the formats that these predictive models simulate, the more successful they are. These developments push us to recognize the normative functions of our forms and potentially transform them.

Jacob Foster                                                           David Esquivel/UCLA

Foster: I think of the short film “Sunspring,” directed by my friend Oscar Sharp, which came out in 2016 and was the first movie written by AI. The script itself is only borderline coherent — this was a much earlier iteration of the technology — but it becomes something much more elevated when interpreted by the human actors, director and viewers.

Snelson: William S. Burroughs would cut up different texts and smash them together to produce a kind of surrealist energy. And he said this beautiful thing, which is that by using this cut-up method, you’re cutting into the present for the future to leak out. Right now, we have an opportunity to think about these new forms of fluid, coherent, algorithmic writing and how we might cut into them to see what they might reveal.

 

Can ChatGPT actually be an asset in teaching at the university level?

Snelson: In my Intro to Comics course, my students collectively wrote a full book in the first week, before they knew anything about the subject, using ChatGPT. I think it’s useful for them to experiment with the essay, and then for the rest of the course we instead use comics formats to produce new knowledge about comics.

We want our students to use modes of critical thinking to navigate the world around them, which now includes these AI tools. Experimenting and playing with them will prepare students, hopefully, to think critically in a technological environment that’s always changing and shifting.

Foster: That’s a very helpful tonic for the prejudice that the essay is a necessary gym to build the skills we want students to have. It’s of a type with my faintly ludicrous “old person” attitude that me learning how to use card catalogs made me uniquely capable to deal with the internet age.

Snelson: Right now, for example, there’s a moral panic in academe about essays. Having taught the fundamentals of argumentation, evidence and rhetoric for over a decade, I can tell you essay writing is not a mysterious formula. The essay has stood strong for a while now; it has limitations that other modes — some of which are still to be invented — may yet be better at when it comes to inspiring students to develop the kind of critical thought needed to address generative algorithms.

Foster and Snelson chatting in the UCLA Court of Sciences                                                                            David Esquivel/UCLA

 

How will we look back on this moment in time?

Snelson: If the history of major technological inventions is any indicator — I’m thinking here of the printing press and the internet — we’ll look back at this time as a moment of confusion and flux with a huge amount of widespread misunderstanding, and, hopefully, with unexpected avenues toward a better future.

It makes me think of this great anecdote by Rudy Rucker, who helped invent the genre of cyberpunk fiction in the 1980s. At some point, he woke up with this universal computing device in his hand that could access all of human knowledge while still living in the extreme disparities of contemporary America and he realized that a cyberpunk future was already well underway.

Foster: In some sense, this is a generalization and acceleration of the experience humans have always had negotiating a world of vast forces far beyond themselves.

As folks like the computer scientist Danny Hillis and mathematician Norbert Wiener have remarked, we’ve been dealing with artificial intelligence for centuries, in the form of corporations and bureaucracies that take human beings as their parts and turn them into vast, impersonal collective machines. Will we be able to tame or resist these new machines? I hope so.

 

On a side note: The Houston Area Apple Users Group will meet on May 20, 2023, with the main meeting topic being AI Chatbots. We will be comparing Google Bard, Microsoft Bing, and OpenAI ChatGPT. This meeting will be held via Zoom. 

The Power of Creative Excellence and the Loss of an Icon

Every once in awhile it’s nice to get another perspective on creativity and its influence in the advertising industry. So this week the creativity blog focuses on an interview with Rob Reilly, the creative lead of WPP. We also acknowledge the passing of an icon who truly embodied the power of creative excellence, Dan Wieden. Below are some excerpts from that interview conducted by Carly Weihe.

In sitting down with Reilly, his passion for creativity and the high quality standards he puts into his work is clear. Under his creative lead, WPP won the Most Creative Company of 2022 at Cannes. Animated and engaging, it’s no surprise he is the chief creative officer for the largest advertising company in the world. With a little over a year under his belt at the company, his outlook on the future is a positive one, emphasizing the importance of collaboration and brand consistency as key factors for continued success.

I have a photograph of the Fearless Girl in my room. I discovered that you had a hand in bringing it to life.

That’s one of the best things someone’s ever started an interview with. I think the accomplishment you can have is to create something that has an impact long after you leave this earth. When the stock brokers come out, they have to face her and remember to do the right thing the next day. The City of New York wanted to move her into a park because she was causing a lot of traffic. We were like, ‘no, we’ll move her to Tokyo or London instead because everybody wants her.’

So, we showed them the comp of the only place we would accept, State Street, and that’s where she is today. We don’t know what the return on investment is on that piece of work, because who knows if it inspired, some president or someone starting a company or finding a cure to a disease, because they were inspired to be a bit fearless.

You’ve been a part of other social justice campaigns such as #NYCSaysGay. How do you leverage real problems to inspire people?

Well,if you’ve seen anything that I’ve done or any presentations I’ve made, I really talk about creativity being today’s most valuable asset. So yes, the NYC Love was a campaign that we did against the Don’t Say Gay issue that they had in Florida. (The campaign was digital billboard advertisements strategically placed across Florida that emphasized NYC’s commitment to the LGBTQ+ community, in partnership with New York City’s mayor Eric Adams.)The idea is great. But the media placement is what makes it really great.

The creative headlines are fun and interesting and pretty punchy, but it’s a fact, that you’re able to buy the media in the States basically telling people to leave Florida, and the state of Florida couldn’t stop it. You need some real ingenuity and real creativity to do that. I have high hopes for creativity being taught to children in schools eventually. We’re teaching our kids a lot of things, and we should be teaching them to use their brain and creative ways to solve problems.

Too many people think, “Oh, I’m not creative.” But you don’t have to be an artist to be creative. You just have to use your brain in different and unique ways to solve things. I feel like more and more creativity is going to be used to get us out of sometimes the messes we create as a country and as a world.

How does hiring talent play into that mission?

I think younger people want to work for companies that are doing the right thing. Whether you choose to work at a company or whether it’s the couple of brands you choose to support, you’re watching what they do. But you also want to have a good career and make money and these two things don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

I think we’ve got to continue to attract unique and different types of individuals by doing the right things for them, and then the right things out in the world. I think where we’re struggling when we get into the diversity and inclusion aspect. I feel like we got to do a way better job of making sure all types of people with all types of opinions and voices and backgrounds are included and this is the business.

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